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	<title>Comments on: At The Risk Of Sounding Ungrateful&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/</link>
	<description>More than meets the eye.  More than the eye wants to meet</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: SOCIALIST UNITY &#187; Top 100 Political Blogs</title>
		<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-7026</link>
		<dc:creator>SOCIALIST UNITY &#187; Top 100 Political Blogs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-7026</guid>
		<description>[...] year Iain got a good deal of stick for his method of compiling the top 100 centre left blogs. Dave Complex and John Angliss pointed out that Iain had circulated an email asking respondents to name their top [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] year Iain got a good deal of stick for his method of compiling the top 100 centre left blogs. Dave Complex and John Angliss pointed out that Iain had circulated an email asking respondents to name their top [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pop Goes The Ego &#171; Complex System Of Pipes</title>
		<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-6590</link>
		<dc:creator>Pop Goes The Ego &#171; Complex System Of Pipes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 18:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-6590</guid>
		<description>[...] me onto his list, under the possibly libellious category of &#8220;Labour Party blogs&#8220;. When I laid into his dodgy methodology Iain replied that it was just &#8220;a bit of fun&#8221; - but that didn&#8217;t stop him from [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] me onto his list, under the possibly libellious category of &#8220;Labour Party blogs&#8220;. When I laid into his dodgy methodology Iain replied that it was just &#8220;a bit of fun&#8221; - but that didn&#8217;t stop him from [...]</p>
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		<title>By: What The Tory?! &#171; Complex System Of Pipes</title>
		<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-5732</link>
		<dc:creator>What The Tory?! &#171; Complex System Of Pipes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Dec 2007 23:40:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-5732</guid>
		<description>[...] top 100 left of centre bloggers.  As I pointed out at the time, one of many problems with his obscure methodology was that he couldn&#8217;t seem to tell the difference between left-of-centre on the one hand and, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] top 100 left of centre bloggers.  As I pointed out at the time, one of many problems with his obscure methodology was that he couldn&#8217;t seem to tell the difference between left-of-centre on the one hand and, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave On Fire</title>
		<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4691</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave On Fire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 00:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4691</guid>
		<description>Iain has now published &lt;a HREF="http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/09/top-500-political-blogs-in-uk-voted-for.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;his list&lt;/A&gt; of the best political blogs overall.  Two main points:

	I'm not in the top 300 (though I might have made the top 500, "you'll have to buy the book to find out", he says.  The book costs a tenner).

	More importantly, Iain is making one or two disclaimers as to the subjectivity of the list, but still holds it up as an example of how much healthier the Right-wing blogosphere is than the Left.


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iain has now published <a HREF="http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/09/top-500-political-blogs-in-uk-voted-for.html" rel="nofollow">his list</a> of the best political blogs overall.  Two main points:</p>
<p>	I&#8217;m not in the top 300 (though I might have made the top 500, &#8220;you&#8217;ll have to buy the book to find out&#8221;, he says.  The book costs a tenner).</p>
<p>	More importantly, Iain is making one or two disclaimers as to the subjectivity of the list, but still holds it up as an example of how much healthier the Right-wing blogosphere is than the Left.</p>
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		<title>By: chjh</title>
		<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4656</link>
		<dc:creator>chjh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:41:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4656</guid>
		<description>“I’m not sure if there’s anything more meaningless than being the 72nd best left-wing blog in the country..." Being the 73rd, presumably?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“I’m not sure if there’s anything more meaningless than being the 72nd best left-wing blog in the country&#8230;&#8221; Being the 73rd, presumably?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave On Fire</title>
		<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4643</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave On Fire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4643</guid>
		<description>Absolutely, when obtained, presented and interpreted responsibly, both objective and subjective rankings can be useful.  When misinterpreted or unduly emphasised/marginalised, any source of information can be dangerous.  In this case, I'd like to underline your earlier point:  Iain's post (indeed, it's a whole series of posts, on the blogging right, the LibDems and the "non-aligned bloggers" - getting a clue about how Iain sees the political world?) serves to falsely "&lt;I&gt;reinforce the idea that there is an ideological consensus in society as a whole that coincides with the political consensus in the Westminster village.&lt;/I&gt;"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely, when obtained, presented and interpreted responsibly, both objective and subjective rankings can be useful.  When misinterpreted or unduly emphasised/marginalised, any source of information can be dangerous.  In this case, I&#8217;d like to underline your earlier point:  Iain&#8217;s post (indeed, it&#8217;s a whole series of posts, on the blogging right, the LibDems and the &#8220;non-aligned bloggers&#8221; - getting a clue about how Iain sees the political world?) serves to falsely &#8220;<i>reinforce the idea that there is an ideological consensus in society as a whole that coincides with the political consensus in the Westminster village.</i>&#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Newman</title>
		<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4638</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Newman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4638</guid>
		<description>Yes - rankings are pernicious.

That is a correct criticism, but at the same time there needs to be some way of saying, "hey, I like/agree with/enjoy this more than I like/agreewith/enjoy this"

But only if we recognise that this is subjective and does not reflect intrinsic worth.

What of course would be slightly less subjective criteria would be rankings based upon the number of comments, and the seriousness of debate in those comments, or on the number of regular readers, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes - rankings are pernicious.</p>
<p>That is a correct criticism, but at the same time there needs to be some way of saying, &#8220;hey, I like/agree with/enjoy this more than I like/agreewith/enjoy this&#8221;</p>
<p>But only if we recognise that this is subjective and does not reflect intrinsic worth.</p>
<p>What of course would be slightly less subjective criteria would be rankings based upon the number of comments, and the seriousness of debate in those comments, or on the number of regular readers, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave On Fire</title>
		<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4637</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave On Fire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4637</guid>
		<description>Hi Andy.

That a "respectable" pundit (especially a right-wing one) would try to detract or distract from the discussions of the masses is almost trivial.  We get an elitist polemic like &lt;a HREF="http://unspeak.net/its-remoteness-from-the-cash-nexus/" rel="nofollow"&gt;this one&lt;/A&gt; in CiS or something about once a month; Iain's list is a much more polite, more subtle, and at this point probably more effective example.

The idea of a blogosphere is now too prevelant to be rubbished away with snobbery, so now we have the next stage: (attempted) co-option.  But I think Iain's approach (blogs are great; believe me, I'm the expert) may be self-defeating; as the more people come round to the idea of using on the blogosphere as a source of information the less they will come to respect the idea of elite pundits and self-appointed experts.  I hope so, at least; misrepresenting the people to themselves is a dirty, but timeless, trick, and deserves to fail.

Your own &lt;a HREF="http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=757" rel="nofollow"&gt;alternative list&lt;/A&gt; was interesting, I'll be investigating some of the names on there as and when time allows.  I think to an extent the idea of rankings and league tables is incompatible with Leftism, and correspondingly it's interesting that you include plenty of disclaimers about both the subjectivity of the list and the arbitrariness of the ordering, while Iain gets straight into what we can "deduce" from the position and nature of the "highest new entries".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Andy.</p>
<p>That a &#8220;respectable&#8221; pundit (especially a right-wing one) would try to detract or distract from the discussions of the masses is almost trivial.  We get an elitist polemic like <a HREF="http://unspeak.net/its-remoteness-from-the-cash-nexus/" rel="nofollow">this one</a> in CiS or something about once a month; Iain&#8217;s list is a much more polite, more subtle, and at this point probably more effective example.</p>
<p>The idea of a blogosphere is now too prevelant to be rubbished away with snobbery, so now we have the next stage: (attempted) co-option.  But I think Iain&#8217;s approach (blogs are great; believe me, I&#8217;m the expert) may be self-defeating; as the more people come round to the idea of using on the blogosphere as a source of information the less they will come to respect the idea of elite pundits and self-appointed experts.  I hope so, at least; misrepresenting the people to themselves is a dirty, but timeless, trick, and deserves to fail.</p>
<p>Your own <a HREF="http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=757" rel="nofollow">alternative list</a> was interesting, I&#8217;ll be investigating some of the names on there as and when time allows.  I think to an extent the idea of rankings and league tables is incompatible with Leftism, and correspondingly it&#8217;s interesting that you include plenty of disclaimers about both the subjectivity of the list and the arbitrariness of the ordering, while Iain gets straight into what we can &#8220;deduce&#8221; from the position and nature of the &#8220;highest new entries&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Newman</title>
		<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4636</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Newman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4636</guid>
		<description>Interesting discussion,

Yes it is not without importnace, becasue the conclusion that Iain, as a celebrated pundit, promotes is that there is little left of centre blogging.

Which reinforces the idea that there is an ideological consensus in society as a whole that coincides with the political consensus in the Westminster village.

i don't really care that my blog ( http://www.socialistunity.com/ ) is not in Iain's list, or that Lenin's isn't.

But I suspect that as the SU blog gets around 1700 unique visitors a day, and Lenin's Tomb even more, that we are actually more representative of left blogging than some of the others who do make his list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting discussion,</p>
<p>Yes it is not without importnace, becasue the conclusion that Iain, as a celebrated pundit, promotes is that there is little left of centre blogging.</p>
<p>Which reinforces the idea that there is an ideological consensus in society as a whole that coincides with the political consensus in the Westminster village.</p>
<p>i don&#8217;t really care that my blog ( <a href="http://www.socialistunity.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.socialistunity.com/</a> ) is not in Iain&#8217;s list, or that Lenin&#8217;s isn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>But I suspect that as the SU blog gets around 1700 unique visitors a day, and Lenin&#8217;s Tomb even more, that we are actually more representative of left blogging than some of the others who do make his list.</p>
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		<title>By: ON THE LIST &#171; Michael Greenwell</title>
		<link>http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4633</link>
		<dc:creator>ON THE LIST &#171; Michael Greenwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 08:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://complexsystemofpipes.wordpress.com/2007/09/24/at-the-risk-of-sounding-ungrateful/#comment-4633</guid>
		<description>[...] The second list in question was by Iain Dale and co. who did the same thing for bloggers. Dave did a good little critique of it at a Complex System of Pipes. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The second list in question was by Iain Dale and co. who did the same thing for bloggers. Dave did a good little critique of it at a Complex System of Pipes. [...]</p>
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